Guide Pay: December 2018 Review

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  • Viewed Alex BI Foundation BI Foundation Bedrock Solutions Bedrock Solutions Blockrock Mining Blockrock Mining Brian Deery BuildingIM BuildingIM Canonical Ledgers Canonical Ledgers Crypto Vikings Crypto Vikings Cube3 Cube3 DBGrow DBGrow De Facto De Facto Factom Inc. Factom Inc. Factomatic Factomatic Factomize Factomize Factoshi Factoshi Federate This Federate This Go Immutable HashnStore HashnStore Julian Fletcher-Taylor LUCIAP LUCIAP LayerTech Matter of Fact Matter of Fact Multicoin Capital Multicoin Capital Niels Klomp Prestige IT Prestige IT RewardChain RewardChain Samuel Vanderwaal Stamp-IT Stamp-IT The Factoid Authority The Factoid Authority Tor Paulsen VBIF VBIF
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#1
Our Guides will stop being paid on the 7th of December. It is therefore necessary to review the terms of Guide pay.

In the first discussion on this topic back in Summer, ANOs decided that Guides should be paid 600 FCT per month with the terms to be reviewed after 3 months. We subsequently reviewed those terms 3 months later in September, where ANOs decided to renew the terms as they initially stood.

Things to consider for this discussion:

1. Should we renew guide pay?
2. How long should the next period last?
3. Should pay be denominated in FCT or USD?
4. How much should guides be paid?

As always, this is an important discussion and I appreciate your time in taking part.
 

Chappie

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#2
This thread is a Major Timed Discussion and I am designed to help facilitate efficient communication.

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#3
Yes we should review the guide pay. The guides provide a tremendous service, in both guiding the ANOs and providing a lot of the cohesion that the community needs.

How long the period should last is a bit more difficult. It is a very dynamic economy and because of this a long time interval may be difficult. Conversely it would be nice to provide some stability. Just to prompt some discussion what about making it a 12 month period with brief 3 monthly reviews to ensure things are not going off-track?

I am a strong advocate of pay being denominated in FCT so that the guides are as affected by FCT price as the ANOs are which is a great motivator for us all. However it would be good to turn this question round and ask the guides how they would like to be paid?

As for how much guides should be paid, I think that as long as FCT holds or exceeds it's current price 600 FCT should be OK but I would not resist a proposed increase.
 
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#5
1) Yes, The guides are doing excellent work and is, in our opninion, still absolutely necessary .

2) Three month periods seems to have worked fine until now, so we suggest to continue with that.

3) If we remember correctly this has been extensively discussed before, and we all voted in favor of FCT-denomination. It aligns the guides incentives with the protocol, is easy to calculate and also protects the grant pool by ensuring that their pay is a fixed percentage of it.

4) We support to continue at the current rate of 600 FCT. The 600 figure was set in June when FCT was priced at at around 15 USD. It was renewed in September when it was 4-5 USD, and now currently it is close to 8 USD. In our eyes this seems fair.
 
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#6
I am generally in agreement with others; renewing the terms as they current stand is a good idea.

@Mike Buckingham I think there might be something to your idea of a 12 month period with quarterly reviews. We could fix three of the questions I asked above for a period of 12 months, then only review the total amount Guides are being paid once per quarter.

However, there is still an outstanding question: how long are Guide terms? That question is outside of the scope of this discussion, and is actively being discussed elsewhere. The reason I bring it up is that it may be wise to wait for that discussion to resolve prior to setting longer term horizons on guide pay.

So, my suggestion for now is to simply renew the terms as they currently are, then set longer payment terms once we have answered those other outstanding questions regarding the role of Guides.
 
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#7
For me personally it will be a really busy 2 months (dec/jan), with all projects at Sphereon, Triall and moving into a new house and Guide stuff. I believe I can still contribute more than enough as guide until feb, otherwise I would resign. But with current FCT prices I would like to either request/propose for half the amount of FCT for me, or donate it to one of the committees that need funding.
 
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#8
I appreciate your honesty, Niels. I support cutting your pay in half to give you more time to focus on your other commitments for the next couple of months.

I suggest simply delaying a decision on what to do with any extra funds until the next grant round when these guide payments will be made. We will be able to make an informed decision about what to do with those any additional funds at that time.
 
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#9
Thanks for creating this thread Alex.

I am personally still spending a considerable amount of time on Guide-work and would appreciate to continue at the current rate. As some of you might remember I reduced my commitment at my dayjob to 80% to facilitate my Guide-work, and that arrangement is still in effect.

If one also takes into consideration the expenses for my LLC (42ND Factoid) and the fact that I pay 50% taxes on my guide-revenue I believe I am still very much in the red compared to not being a guide.

I do however hold on to parts of the FCT I earn, and hopefully that will turn out to be a good investment - aligning my incentives with the protocol as someone mentioned above. :)

I don't really want to participate in this discusson (it's for the ANO's to decide), but as our input was requested and Niels already chimed in I did too. I will further ask TFA to abstain from voting on this matter.
 
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#10
I'm fine with the current pay considering the rough times you guys had to go through.

As a side note, I'd like to know what do you estimate is the amount of time needed on average per week nowadays versus the amount of time that was needed to take care of the guide position before.

Do we foresee a point in time where Guide is a part time job/salary vs a full time job/salary ?
 
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#14
1. Should we renew guide pay?
Yes, definitely they're an important part of the protocol.

2. How long should the next period last?
I agree that we should continue with the 3 month periods until other discussions conclude.

3. Should pay be denominated in FCT or USD?
There seems to be a lot of support for 600 FCT. I personally feel it would be fairer if we adjusted the compensation for guides based on the current FCT price. When the FCT price dropped some ANOs reduced their commitments but I feel guides are expected to do the same amount of work regardless of what the current FCT price is. However, saying that I believe its only worth having the conversation if guides themselves wanted it to happen.

4. How much should guides be paid?
I am happy for the continuation of 600 FCT but I realize it isn't a huge amount of money for the work they do. I would personally be happy to increase this amount if guides felt they wanted it.

@Niels Klomp thank you for your willingness to donate half your guide pay. It is a very kind gesture and certainly demonstrates your strong commitment to the protocol :)
 
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#15
I'd be interested in hearing from @Samuel Vanderwaal @briandeery and @Julian Fletcher-Taylor if they feel their current ability to commit time is in line with receiving the full pay or not.
I believe that my current ability to commit time is in line with receiving the full salary. However, I think that part of the discussion should be how we define Guide roles. It's not always clear to me what is considered Guide work and what isn't. I know all of the Guides are putting a lot of time into the ecosystem but we probably need clearer lines about what is compensated Guide work and what are personal or ANO contributions. A simple example would be the script I wrote for backing up the Community Google Drive folder. I don't know if that's "Guide work" or just something I decided to do on my own because I don't feel Doc 001 clearly defines Guide roles as well as it should.

In that particular case, it probably doesn't matter too much because I would have made it for fun even if I wasn't a Guide, but clearly defining Guide roles will help all of us Guides evaluate how much time we're actually putting into the job.
 

Chappie

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#16
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#17
Guides should absolutely be paid for their time and effort.
We think that the 3-month cadence for pay review is still the right way to go and is working well.
Having pay in FCT aligns guides incentives with the protocol, so I would argue we should keep pay in FCT.
BuildingIM supports 600 FCT per month per guide for the next payment period (no need to rock the boat until we have a massive price swing).
 
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#20
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#21
We support the renewal with the same conditions as the previous time.

@Guides can you give us a high level overview of what you think your work will consist for the December-February period? Just to get some clarity and perspective. Thank you!
This is basically rehashing what Julian said, but these are the upcoming items I see us working on:
  • ANO and Guide processes
  • Reworking the grant process
  • Expanding Standing Parties
  • Restructure committees to working groups and include in governance
  • Hold a new ANO application round
  • Work with legal on items such as:
    • Reworking the Governance document
    • Foundation
    • Rebranding?
  • Implementing regular ANO application rounds?
  • Other things I'm likely forgetting
 
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#22
We support the renewal without changes to the existing conditions and thank the Guides for their great work!

We would also appreciate it, if in the coming months, we as a community start some discussion around how/what parts of the work done by Guides can be automated in a trustless manner, in order to reduce their workload and further decentralize our ecosystem.
 
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#24
@DanG

In hindsight, I don't think it would work. It would make it very difficult to manage grants, as we would not know how much guides were going to be paid from the grant pool until just before the activation height. Also at the last grant round the guides would have received a fairly massive portion of the pool had their pay been fixed in EC. In fact it would have been about 30k FCT, more than 3x what they actually got.

I now believe we should denominate guide payout in FCT, as it ties their fate to that of the protocol along with ANOs.
 

Chappie

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#29
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